Joshua 1:8
"...[B]ut you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success." (Joshua 1:8).
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39).
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).
I particularly love versus 24- Completely corresponds with Bill's sermon's about being "all in", and in my mind corresponds with what we talk about with Radical. Being all in, giving it your all and God takes care of the rest. While that doesn't mean that it is necessarily the "easy way" we will be equipped if we have total faith and trust in God. THAT is why I think that it isn't necessarily "uncomfortable", simply because if we we are all in, or are running the race to win it we are in a different mindset, and our heart is in a different place. One that is more trusting, more willing, more mature etc. I like the athlete comparison. A marathoner will never say that a marathon is easy because they have trained. But they will tell you that their body was equipped for the marathon because of their training. Is that a fair comparison? I can't go into a physics test without studying. I will fail. I think of this when I think about where I am at in my walk with God. Right now, if I went to an island of cannibals I would have no success - UNLESS God sent me there, because then it is him working through me. But I almost think it will be similar to during childbirth (sorry josh and Joel and Karyn you have missed out, and I'm sure you're jealous). In no way did I want to push a baby out (Josh can verify that) but my body did it. On it's own. That is how I imagine God using my life. Yes it will be hard, and yes I probably won't want to do it but I just will. As long as I allow it (to continue with this horrible analogy, as long as I don't opt for the c-section)...
ReplyDeleteCan you tell I had coffee this morning?
Good points Mary (and thank you for changing the reading to the correct chapter).
ReplyDeleteI understand everyone's problem with being "uncomfortable". After all, if God loves us and we're all in, what have we got to fear? But I think that's circumventing (our 4 year old's favorite word these days) the whole point. If you recall from Romans, Paul states that there is a very clear struggle between the spirit and the flesh - and this struggle never stops until we're rid of these bodies. Jesus himself said, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." This is why we MUST rely on the spirit. Not so we can rid ourselves of our flesh but so that we can overcome our natural bend toward sin. It is uncomfortable to reject our own flesh and is what the Spirit of God pushes us to do. Yes, Jesus' yoke is easy compared to our own yoke/the yoke of sin. Yes, we ought to rest in Christ. But remember that God is always changing us, growing us, molding us in the image of Christ - and growing pains are UNCOMFORTABLE! If you're not uncomfortable, chances are you're not growing. To use the marathon analogy, being uncomfortable is a good thing. It's our proof that we're getting faster, stronger, in better shape. So too is our walk with God.
I think verse 27 of this chapter sums it up perfectly.
"Yes, we ought to rest in Christ. But...." To me there's no but there. Christ is our Savior and Lord. He's changing us by His Spirit, not by our own strength. He is teaching us to deny ourselves. He is teaching us. He took care of everything himself on the cross. We can't earn His love and encouragement. He loves us UNCONDITIONALY. To me, that is COMFORTABLE and I take COMFORT in that. :)
ReplyDeleteAs you should. As we all should. But again, I think you're missing the whole point. HIS changing us ought to be uncomfortable - growing pains are uncomfortable. I think v. 27 states this perfectly.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean this as a personal indictment, Joel, but as general application for all of us - if we're not uncomfortable, how are we dying to self? Jesus said to rest in Him but He also commanded us to take up our cross and follow Him. How is it possible to comfortably be crucified? Again, I think it comes back to the ever present war between the Spirit and the flesh. As you said, he is teaching us to deny ourselves. Well said, but what good is being a student if you don't apply what you've learned? Now we're right back to 1 Cor 1, still drinking milk.
Paul himself in Galations writes. "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Yes it is a battle between our flesh and His Spirit. Ultimately the battle is already won by Jesus on the cross. And if we continually lean on Him and abide in His love, He will change our hearts and minds and motivations. Yes the sanctification process will be uncomfortable, but should we take ultimately take comfort in Him who loves us unconditionally, Who died that we may live with Him? How is this not comforting?
ReplyDeleteYes we deny ourselves and take up our own cross. But only by HIS Power through His Spirit, not ours. This is comforting.
If we had to do it by ourselves, why would He send the Holy Spirit - the Comforter - the Advocate - the Helper - to us? Comforting!!
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
I think we should take God at His Word and REST in Him.
What I'm referring to is "working out our salvation" as Paul calls it and further addresses in today's reading. With all due respect, you're taking a few verses to heart and chucking the rest of the Bible. That's not taking God at His Word; that's picking and choosing.
ReplyDeleteAre we saved by our "working out our salvation"? Or by Jesus Christ?
ReplyDeleteI understand that growing pains are uncomfortable - but that doesn't mean we pray for the discomfort right? Nor do we take note on how painful they are on a scale of 1 to 10 for how much we grow. We don't measure physical growth by keeping a journal about leg cramps, we measure with a pencil mark on the wall. Same with spiritual growth. I don't take comfort in the fact that I am struggling, feel uncomfortable/out of my control etc. I take comfort in the fact that I can look back on difficult times and I see a better person (sometimes) that comes out of it.
ReplyDelete*Josh make sure you're not "chucking" out parts either my "realist" husband ;)
I think the miscommunication here is the different meanings of uncomfortable and comfort. Paul certainly wasn't comfortable in jail. But he took comfort in Jesus' love and salvation for him. And my apologies for "chucking the rest of the bible"
ReplyDeleteSorry if my comments are upsetting. The problem I have with the radical book is that it seems like it makes us look at ourselves rather than Jesus. Like you said Mary, the point isn't the level of discomfort we feel, the point is the Good News of Jesus Christ. The point isn't that I become a "better person", the point is that I follow Jesus closely. The thief next to Jesus isn't in heaven because of himself, it is because of Jesus. And neither is anybody else. If I'm wrong I pray God correct me.
ReplyDeleteIf I may beat a dead horse. Here's Pauls quote:
ReplyDelete"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
For it is God.... not us.
If WE had anything to do with our salvation, justification, sanctification.... whateveration... would there be room to boast? I see that you guys are refering to "running the race" and verse 27. But base on all of Pauls other writings, is there any reason to think that he does this by his own power? Or by the Spirit?
Once again, as I stated above and you guys stated above, God's sanctifying us IS uncomfortable, but ultimately we take comfort and rest in Jesus alone, not our own performance.
Mary, growth pains are a product of growth, not a measuring tool. You can't have growth without growth pains, that just reality.
ReplyDeleteJoel, again with all due respect, you're missing the whole point. You're arguing Salvation. Paul is speaking of working out our salvation - two different things. I'll address this further later this evening. Until then, something to ponder: Doesn't walking with God require us to take steps?
Of course it does! That's why we need to lean on Jesus, not ourselves. Are you saying that Jesus saves us and the rest is up to us?
ReplyDeleteWow...(this is Karyn) I have missed an entire day of some intense blogging. I read what everyone wrote and I am blown away by some of the responses and opinions. For me, growing pains are the battles and struggles that we deal with in our lives. The choice we have to make as followers of Christ is are we handing it over to Him and letting Him bring us comfort when we are feeling extremely uncomfortable in our lives. He is the ONLY one who can bring us comfort. I think that ALL uncomfortable or times in our lives that we are experiencing growing pains is when we are relying on ourselves or doing what makes us feel good. Jesus is not bringing us pain and discomfort we are because we are selfish idiots sometimes. It is only when we turn to Jesus to ask for His help do we feel comfort. I think we are getting way too wrapped in the terms "comfort" and "uncomfortable." I pray that we all take from this that God wants to bring us joy and happiness in Him not a life of being upset or worried if we measure up. Jesus is love and that is what He ultimately commands us to do is love each other and build each other up in Him. I am glad we have this forum to learn from each other and most importantly I love you both and am blessed to have you in my life:)
ReplyDeleteHahaha! Yeah, where have you been Karyn?! This is a battleblog :)
Delete*And Josh, I can't say I agree with you. Say I have rose-colored glasses on all you want, but you keep telling me and reminding me that salvation is a gift. And the thing is about a gift is that it is the same without any concern for how you got to receive it. Doesn't matter if you grew up knowing God, or if you grew up atheist and found God, or if you were knew Him, ran away, and came back or whatever - the gift itself is the same right? You keep reminding me of that. And you can definitely experience growth without the pain - especially with respect to seeking God, or perhaps you "grow" due to someone else experiencing pain - or miracles. Right? I can agree that good (even if we can't find it) comes out of evil acts, but I cannot agree that good ONLY comes out of pain and suffering.
Again, this chapter isn't about salvation. Paul is speaking to believers. And again, pain and suffering is the byproduct of sin. Everyone will experience pain, regardless. The Believer is guaranteed persecution and trials on top of this. And added to all of this, Christians are to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Christ - this is the internal war that Paul eludes to (and the growth pains I'm speaking of, and the being uncomfortable that the book "Radical" is highlighting). Naturally we need a Comforter (the Holy Spirit) because life just sucks at times - even more so for the Believer. That's just reality. And the very notion that we need a comforter implies there is discomfort. And for those who think God doesn't want us to experience pain, I'd like you to take up that argument with Job, not me.
ReplyDeleteAs for the issue of salvation verses "working out our salvation", Mary and I discussed this last week and I would like to share it with anyone who is willing to read the novel that is about to transpire. Please bear with me! The best way I've heard it explained is in nautical terms. Humanity is on a beach trying to cross a VAST ocean to reach God. Obviously, you can't swim across an ocean. God provided us a means to cross that ocean via Christ. You can picture Christ as an unsinkable life raft sitting on shore; one for every person on the face of the planet. God gave us free will to either get in the boat or ignore/reject/mock the boat. This is available to ALL as a gift from God that we are freely able to accept or reject.
When we become Christians, we get in the boat. In the boat there are two oars - supplied by God. These oars are faith and works. Again, faith and works are both given to us by God but we have a free will to either deny them or pick them up and row. This is what Paul refers to as our "working out our salvation". It is what Jesus refers to in the parable of the talents. If we are to walk with God, we have to actually get up and walk. Proverbs says in all we do we are to acknowledge him and he will direct our path - not walk it for us.
When we decide to pick up the oars, we again have the free will to either row just our faith oar, just our works oar, or both. Again, our chart is marked by God, the oars are given, the boat given, the ocean given, rations given, etc, but we are asked to row. Some choose to rely on the faith oar - just lean on Jesus and everything will be OK. Some choose to rely on the works oar - I'll work my but off for the sake of Christ. Both result in rowing in circles. When we pick up both oars and allow Christ unfettered access in our lives (which is never fully realized by the mortal) He honors that and allows fruit to grow in our lives. This is what James refers to when he says, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" and "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also". James does a great job in addressing both sides of the equation and I say we take up this book after we're done with Corinthians.
Finally, I want to address something Mary and I just spoke about: I want to challenge anyone who thinks a relationship with God can be without discomfort. I have yet to know anyone who has had a perfect relationship. It is impossible to grow intimate with someone and not experience pain. If anyone claims to have an easy, perfectly comfortable relationship, I'd love to shake the hands of two perfect people. How much more difficult is it when one person is a miserable, wretched, foolish, hateful being and the other is absolutely PERFECT. This is our relationship with God. God takes us just as we are - Thank God for that! But He doesn't stop there - Thank God for that too. He is forever molding us into the image of Christ. This is the work of the Spirit - the Comforter - the Teacher - the CONVICTER. One cannot be molded, regardless of how pliable (and really we're naive to say we're very pliable at all), and not experience discomfort.
ReplyDeleteAnd on a side note: there is nothing wrong with arguing a point and discussing important matters - this has nothing to do with being mean or spiteful. That is after all the point of having open discussion. Sometimes we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Joshua. You leave for work in 4 hours. Get to bed you party animal!
ReplyDeleteJosh take it from a 39 year old guy thats been divorced and has struggled with depression, anxiety, addictions to various things, I know discomfort is part of the life of the believer. But the discomfort comes from us, not from God. I am greatly comforted by a God that died for us that knows we are sinners and helps us along the road as we follow Him. Sorry I feel comforted by that and am comfortable in my utter dependence on Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly what I just said, Joel. You're still stuck on the foundation. I'm speaking of that being built on the foundation. I don't know if you even read what I wrote but it sounds like you're on a different page. Let me ask you, did Jesus force you to quit smoking? Or did he simply open your eyes and enable you to make up your mind and then walk with you through the process? The decision in the end came down to your willing to not pick up that cigarette. Again, I agree with everything you're saying - you're simply comparing apples with broccoli :)
ReplyDeleteOk. Yes I read what you wrote and appreciate the time you took. I think we agree on this whole deal. Of course Christ doesn't walk it for us, but His gives us His strength and Spirit to do so. Paul always writes of being weak but looking to Christ for strength, how we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. I take comfort that we can look to Him for His Strength and Spirit. I know you agree.
ReplyDeleteI'm just glad to know we don't have to sing "Tidings of discomfort and joy" this Christmas. :)
If I may add one more as I feel convicted about this. I am speaking of myself and, I'm sure you will be happy about this Josh ;), I feel uncomfortable, but ultimately comfortable. I should not have got into a bickering session with you Josh. We need to build each other up in Christ, not squabble over things. I just want you to know I love both of you as a brother and sister in Christ and I'm sorry we let this whole thing get contentious, at least on my end. I hope you and God can forgive me for arguing instead of building up.
ReplyDeleteNo contentment and thank you for your honesty. Conflict is important for growth - gracious conflict that is.
ReplyDeleteIf I may add one more thing, Joel, even though you find comfort in Christ, quitting smoking is extremely uncomfortable, correct? I know this first hand. This is the point of the book Radical - to reject what has become the American dream of finding our satisfaction and comfort in stuff rather than Christ. To find comfort and satisfaction in Christ who then convicts us to abandon our former comforts (such as smoking) which is truly uncomfortable. This is what Jesus referred to as first counting the cost before following Him, because there will be heart break, pain, and discomfort - but thankfully even as we experience these things, Jesus is right there with us.
Amen to that, Jesus is right there.
ReplyDeleteHey Josh and Mary, thanks again for patience with me on this whole comfort and uncomfort thing. Job would be a great book to read after Corinthians. :)
ReplyDeleteOops I mean James
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